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Ok! We've decided to attempt a Loot Council style for our loot system. This system isn't set up to mandate who gets pieces first, just as a mediater for fair distribution. Our goal is to pretty much let our members decide who gets loot and to be as fair as possible. The loot councils purpose is to prevent loot whores from having their way (though i hope we never recruit ppl like that). I've heard that several of you have tried it and it really didn't turn out that great, but i also know of a guild that used it and it helped them accomplish end game instances quickly and effectively. The loot council will basically be mainly for the set peices. The logic in doing this is that a set bonus will benefit more on one person first instead of evenly distributing throughout many members.
Our main tanks and healers will be the first priority for the set pieces. We'd also want to mention that they won't be getting their full tier bonus, only the first until other members also get their set bonuses. There are only 2 pieces of T4 in Karazhan so it won't be too difficult to distribute that among the ten members that are there. As we move into the 25 mans, those with the pieces of T4 already will recieve their set bonuses first. If it is pretty even then it is still Tank/Healer priority. We am aware that Warriors/Priests/Druids share their drop for set pieces so a rotation for this will be set in place, hoever, as mentioned before, tanks and healers are our priority. It's important to remember that once we establish consistant raiding that the loot will flow in more quickly. A little patience will be appreciated here.
For the rest of the loot that drops, (ie. trinkets, weapons, rings, etc.) We will start off with a random roll at first just because the first few weeks of raiding will pretty much show a pattern in the dedicated members that are willing to raid. After we see who's dedicated, we can more easily mediate the distribution of loot. EXAMPLE: a trinket drops that would be good for Rogues, Hunters, and Druids; idealy we would like to see our members work it out, if we don't see that happening, then we'll step in and look to see who needs it more in terms of present gear/participation. This doesn't mean that it will go to the less geared member if that member is new, it just means that the distribution will be decided on as the circumstances present themselves. The goal we're striving for is to have a tight community of friends that is focused on the over all guild's needs more than their own. We're pretty confident that if we can achieve that we will have little to no problems with loot.
This post can and will be open to modification. If anything has changed we will post a note on the GMotD.
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Plays
Duklord
Level 75 Warlock, Destruction.
Undead. Horde.
Stormscale (PvP) - NorthAmerica
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- Duklord. 70 Warlock. Destruction.
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Personally I've never seen a Loot Council system work. Main reason being, the system is easily viewed as bias and unfair. I realize that the leaders of the guild want to run a fair and unbias raiding group however, when a dispute over item distribution arises (guaranteed to happen sooner or later) the person that loses the dispute is likely going to suspect bias/favoritism was a factor. Thier closer friends sympathize with them and leads to cliques forming in the guild, which later devolops into guild drama. I think the main reason most guilds favor a DKP system, is that its non objective. The more you raid, the more you earn, simple as that.
Reading through the details of how this particular loot council will be run I find the following problems and/or contradictions:
"Our goal is to pretty much let our members decide who gets loot and to be as fair as possible.... i also know of a guild that used it and it helped them accomplish end game instances quickly and effectively."
This system can help move things along more quickly when there is no contest as to whom an item should be awarded. Example: A piece of +healing mail drops and there is only one shaman in the raid. In many cases there will be more than one person who may want a particular drop. In this event debating who the item is "better for" or who is more entitled to it will likely take longer than a simple dkp bid or /rand. The "fairness" of the distribution will always vary from person to person's perspecvie. More on that...
"Our main tanks and healers will be the first priority for the set pieces. We'd also want to mention that they won't be getting their full tier bonus"
I'm sure you wont have to look far to find people that find this policy unfair. While tanks and healers are a critical component of an effective group so is good dps. Different encounters are more demanding on tanking/healing/dps than others. The game is built this way by design so you need more than just one or two geared classes to conquer an encounter. Furthermore the set bonuses from set to set vary in usefulness in a raid setting. Example, Priest two piece bonus: Your prayer of healing spell now also causes an additional 150 healing over 9 sec. Essentially a short renew for 50hp, 16.6HPS, on a spell that not all encounters rely on. I would much rather have a greater number of people in epics than receive a small HoT from a prayer of healing.
"It's important to remember that once we establish consistant raiding that the loot will flow in more quickly."
Loot only flows in as quickly as the 7 day reset will allow.
"EXAMPLE: a trinket drops that would be good for Rogues, Hunters, and Druids; idealy we would like to see our members work it out, if we don't see that happening, then we'll step in and look to see who needs it more in terms of present gear/participation."
This example seems contradictory to the previously stated goal of quick and efficient. The part I really have a problem with is where someone else steps in and tells the people involved who an items is "best" for. This is a completely objective decision possibly being made by someone that has little or no experience with the classes it concerns. Taking their current gear into consideration, I interpret that means one of two things. One, the more gear you have acquired, the more gear you get. Or two, the less gear you have the more likely you are awarded loot. Either way participation is not a factor. If someone raids more they should get more. Their current gear should not be a factor.
"The goal we're striving for is to have a tight community of friends that is focused on the over all guild's needs more than their own."
This is a very noble goal that we all should strive for, I completely agree. From my years of experience playing this game I've found a DKP system fosters this type of community better than Loot Council systems. The idea of the loot council system is much more appealing than the reality I'm afraid. The big problem most people have with this system is that its objective and subject to bias. Ultimately no matter how tight the group, there will be disagreements. I'm not saying people are going to rant and rave over drops or have tantrums on vent, but people will disagree with distribution from time to time. When this happens a wedge is driven in between those on opposite sides of an issue, leading to cliques and "guild drama" which we don't want or need. The fairness of a loot council system is in the eye of the beholder so to speak.
Under a DKP system the final decision is in black and white, how many points have you earned? The more you raid, the more you earn, the more rewards you may receive. Its hard to argue the fairness of a system where what you put in is directly proportional to what you can get out. That being said, remember that we run the dkp system, it does not run us! When an item drops before bids are taken you can still take a look at your fellow guild mates and decide who needs what.
Hypothetical situation: Lets say for example a nice epic caster ring drops. It would be a small upgrade for me since I already have epic rings. Nitrus is in the raid and his rings suck! (yeah I'm picking on you bud) Of course I'm going to let the ring go to Nitrus. Sure I can bid on it, it is a small upgrade for me, but Nitrus is my friend and guild mate so naturally I would rather see it go to him (i.e. minimum dkp cost). However, if we both had similar gear and it was arguably the same upgrade for either one of us, then we bid what its worth to us.
There are several ways to tune a dkp system for a specific group. Pay what you bid, +5 second highest bidder, set prices, silent auction, etc. In my opinion you get a more solid foundation for your raid community when its build on a concrete system such as this. Guild progression is important, and so is having fun and progressing your individual character. When everyone participates and progresses their toons, the guild benefits as a whole.
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necrous, i can undertsand why you think its unfair, but let me assure you its much easier with 10 ppl than the previous raids. we've been in karazhan with 30+ epics and have had no problem.
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its much much easier than dkp.
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i understand your concerns Necrous, and you're mostly right, some people may have problems with the system. if i did contradict myself i did not mean to and i'll try to clear that up:
"accomplish end game instances quickly and effectively" i didn't mean the actual run in terms of hours. i meant actually clearing the instance, moving on to the next instance, and not being months behind the other guilds that have cleared it.
as to what i meant about the "loot coming in more quickly" is that soon we will be raiding more during that 7 day period and it won't be only Karazhan. Gruul's Lair and the other 25 mans are out there waiting for us. so yes, loot will be coming in more quickly as soon as we can get into those places and tear them up.
If things truly worked as they did in your hypothetical situation then of course we'd use the DKP system and we wouldn't have a problem at all. coming from a guild that used the dkp system however, i never saw it work that way and it created some tension throughout the classes. we had the top raiders who had most of the DKP and were getting their full set pieces first before anyone else even had a chance at it. this in turn affected raid attendance because the ppl with less DKP said "fuck it, im not even up for loot so why go?" they didn't think for the guild as a whole and the reason we are "attempting" the loot council is because of this. we want to be able to step in if needed and say "hey, that item really isn't a huge upgrade for you and it helps everyone else out more if we replaced nitrus' shitty ring." the loot council just garuntees that rather than relying on other people's good will.
i also understand that this means it's relying on the unbaised decision of a loot council who can also have baises, which is why we have an odd 5 to reduce that bais. when it can't be decided among the members believe this system will work, but again we will only be TRYING this system. if it doesn't work we will go to some form of a dkp system. we're just trying to avoid that hassle since it is only 10 and 25 man instances now instead of 40 and many of us in Destined came from a guild where the dkp system basically crashed the guild.
i personally have never tried a bidding system, or anything other than a straight "you have more dkp u get lewts" system for that matter. i have heard complaints about every type though. what has held the members in that guild is the accomplishments happening end game, the more instances we do in a week and the more we clear in a night determines how fast we can recieve loot and how content we can keep our members.
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oh one other thing i forgot to mention.
"One, the more gear you have acquired, the more gear you get. Or two, the less gear you have the more likely you are awarded loot. Either way participation is not a factor. If someone raids more they should get more. Their current gear should not be a factor."
when we were thinking of using the Loot Council system this topic did come up. we will NOT reward those that hardly attend a raid over someone who has been dedicated and consistant with their raiding. this goes for the members of the council as well. what i meant when i said that the lesser geared member could possibly recieve loot is just what u mentioned in your hypothetical situation:
if its a small upgrade for one consistant raider, and a big upgrade for a second consistant raider, then the item will most likely go to the second less geared BUT STILL consistant raider. when it comes to someone that has only made a few runs the item will go to the more consistant raider if he/she really wants it, because he/she has proven themselves helpful to the entire guild far more than the other member who shows up occasionally just for shits n' giggles.
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Keep track of attendance and post it on the guild website, then if there's a dispute, look at the attendance sheet.
If two or more people are equally deserving and can equally benefit from one item (say, the 3 best dps casters that have 100% attendance), then I would say /roll for it. Next time a similar situation arises, that person is out of the picture for rolling and the remaining /roll until the rotation completes. Then the next round of /rolls can begin.
What it all boils down to is common sense. If you're a healer and wanting to roll on a damage trinket when there's a caster that needs it, you have no right to get upset. I think most people in our guild are reasonable enough to see this, so I honestly don't see a problem with it at all. I've known pretty much all of you guys for a while and I seriously do not see a big loot problem, especially with the smaller raids. You won't have 15+ people drooling over 1 purple.
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besides, if you raid with me i ML and ninja everything to vendor.
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nowai aesa.. you promised me all cloth.
and also, i suggested this loot system because i saw it work effectively in my previous guild (we cleared 1/2 of naxx before aq gates even opened lol).. not saying that the loot system is why we owned =) but as a part of their loot officer core, we distributed all the items fairly and if anyone had any complaints, we usually worked it out..
of course, this system isn't flawless but it's one of the better ones i've come across.. i mean no offense to the dkp system but in foundation, i was at EVERY raid since i joined and even at that rate, i could never catch up to the highest dkpers...
anyways we're all friends and respectful of each other.. i think this system benefits and compliments that fact the best.
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i'm not friends with nor respectful of bhoredom, but its ok cuz only shammy t4 drops anyways
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don't be jealous aesa.
btw...grats relics for next weeks t4 gloves. get dps ones imo
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i love how we totally ended up trolling both of the threads in "the important stuff"
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our conversations are important imo
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you're not. aesa is.
end of story.
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